This is part of the continuing conversation with Brad regarding the recent debate between Austin Dacey and William Lane Craig on the existence of God. I’ll go point by point through Brad’s most recent comments:
(1) Brad admits that he believes his faith is “more reasonable and logical” than atheism.
That’s all well and good, but again I have to ask: If your faith is more reasonable and logical than atheism, what do you say of the atheist? Is he or she ignorant of the facts, incapable of reason and logic, or willfully defiant in the face of the alleged reason and evidence for theism?
(2) Brad says, “I can’t imagine this world all being an accident or chance.”
Perhaps you can’t, but that doesn’t mean it’s not true. Your statement is just as worthwhile as if I were to say, “I can’t imagine this world being under the continuing maintenance of the Christian God.” Failure of imagination is not a valid argument against something. This is also known as the “argument from incredulity.”
Craig used this one a lot, by the way, he just used sly phrasing to cover it up. For instance, when he slid past selected propositions from his syllogisms by saying they were “obvious.” That was just another way of saying, for instance, “I can’t conceive of a universe without a beginning as I define it, therefore the universe must have a beginning as I define it.”
You might think that Dacey was also using the argument from incredulity in his series of propositions, “If God existed we would expect to see X; we do not see X, therefore God probably does not exist.” (I.e., “I cannot possibly imagine the existence of a God who is so brutal and cruel as the Christian God.”) But Dacey was careful to note that even if God exists (and he did allow that possibility), there is still the question of whether God is worthy of love, praise, and worship. (I.e., “I can imagine the existence of a God who is so brutal and cruel as the Christian God; I just see nothing worthwhile in loving, praising, or worshiping such a God.”) Dacey’s argument was then, in effect, “Since the world has all these problems that God, if he exists, refuses to do anything about, or even actively causes, God is not worthy of love, praise, and worship.” The only Christian refutation (that I have ever heard) is to say that God allows or even causes pain for some ultimate, greater good (Dacey pointed this out as well), but still, why should I want to worship a God who behaves like that?
(3) Brad laments an alleged lack of “missing links” and transitional fossils, says that “mutations have never been anything but negative,” and asserts that “microevolution can be proven, but macroevolution has never come close.”
Now you’re talking about evolution, but I’m talking about theism versus atheism. Don’t conflate atheism and evolution, because they are not the same. Atheism is a refutation of the assertion that there is a supernatural God (or gods) who interacts with with the world and people in it. Evolution is a theory for why life is so diverse. I am not an expert on evolution, so I suggest that if you are interested in that, try these links (which I use for reference) and books (which I have read):
EvoWiki. Lots of general information about evolution in the open source wiki format. Very cool site, and you can actually participate. See also the Talk.Origins Archive.
Examples of Beneficial Mutations. Just a compilation of real, experimental data where scientists have witnessed and recorded beneficial mutations. Interesting stuff. Includes references to other sources as well.
The Selfish Gene by Richard Dawkins. Not just because it’s one of the best explanations of evolution that I have ever read, but because it’s an extraordinarily important book that many thinkers and writers have referred to in the nearly thirty years since its initial publication. This book put Dawkins on the scene and he has stayed there ever since. It would be irresponsible to enter the discussion without reading this book.
The Extended Phenotype by Richard Dawkins. This one is basically a sequel to The Selfish Gene. Incidentally, I’m recommending so much Dawkins because he is, in my opinion, the best science writer around, maybe the best ever. If only physicists had a Dawkins!
The Structure of Evolutionary Theory by Stephen Jay Gould. This is the only book I’m listing that I have not yet read in its entirety, but I hope you can forgive me because it is 1,343 pages long! Gould is often held up as a theoretical arch-enemy of Dawkins, and this is his magnum opus. If you’re going to read Dawkins (and, by the way, I would also recommend Dawkins’ latest biggie, The Ancestor’s Tale, though I am not finished reading that one yet, either), then you really need to read Gould, too. Gould himself would probably say that if you’re going to read anything of his, read this. Too bad it’s so big, though.
Scientists Confront Creationism edited by Laurie Godfrey. This one I’m listing simply because it’s over twenty years old, but still its confrontation with creationists is prescient because, astonishingly, in the last twenty years creationists have not altered their arguments much (except to start calling them “intelligent design” and otherwise dress them up in different lingo)!
You would also find some profit in reading Carl Zimmer’s article on digital life in the latest Discover magazine. Particularly, note this passage:
The Avida team makes their software freely available on the Internet, and creationists have downloaded it over and over again in hopes of finding a fatal flaw. While they’ve uncovered a few minor glitches, Ofria says they have yet to find anything serious. “We literally have an army of thousands of unpaid bug testers,†he says. “What more could you want?â€
However, again, I don’t think discussions of evolution are necessarily pertinent to the question of whether God exists (although the question of whether God exists may be pertinent to discussions of evolution). Just as I think it’s irresponsible and dishonest for people like William Lane Craig to rely on theories about whatever might have happened “before” the Big Bang, and on the alleged experiences of characters in the New Testament, instead of addressing the question from the Here-and-Now, I think it is irresponsible and dishonest to argue from the other direction that evolution proves the nonexistence of God. Evolution is a very successful theory designed to explain a wide assortment of observed and measured facts (i.e., there is a difference between the fact of evolution and the theory of evolution), but the existence of theologians who incorporate evolution into their theology is evidence that evolution alone does not invalidate theism. Many Christians are quite content to be theists and accept the theory. Richard Dawkins has famously said that evolution makes it possible to be an “intellectually satisfied” atheist, but that is much different from saying that evolution makes it impossible to be a theist.
(4) “For atheists who are always so skeptical about everything else, they seem to accept evolution with blind faith.”
Again you are conflating atheism with evolution, as well as conflating general skepticism with specific atheism, which, speaking stricktly, is only skepticism of theism. Atheists may accept the theory of evolution, and they may be general skeptics, but there is nothing about atheism that requires either of those two positions.
Second, I have never met anyone who “accept[s] evolution with blind faith,” and am not sure how one would go about doing so. It is certainly true that, for most people, the scientific problems that precipitated the formation of evolutionary theory are not part of their everyday experience. But that does not mean people who read about these things and come to their own reasoned conclusions are accepting anything on “blind faith” simply because they have not seen fossils, stratified layers of rock, genetic similarities, and archaeological evidence with their own eyes. Just as many people accept that flipping the light switch in their house will lead to illumination even though they have never seen the wiring with their own eyes. Are they accepting electricity with blind faith? I personally have read much about biology and evolution and fail to see how evolutionary theory is something anyone needs to accept by “blind faith.” Read the stuff yourself and see what you think. If you’re not convinced, just say you’re not convinced (a perfectly reasonable thing to say), but don’t go around saying that other people who are convinced are operating by “blind faith,” because then you’re (1) making assumptions about how and what other people think, and (2) ignoring the problem of explaining why exactly you are not convinced. These kinds of disputes can only honestly be addressed by speaking from your own perspective, not from someone else’s.
(5) “I realize that you don’t feel it is an atheists responsibility to prove our existence apart from the supernatural, but why live life simply questioning everyone else. Don’t you desire to know if an afterlife is possible? If there is a heaven and a hell? Supernatural things do not reveal themselves through natural science, as Craig pointed out when he urged scientists to not discount all of the anamolies that are swept under the rug when experimenting and looking for patterns. Dacey said he would need an audible voice from God to make him believe. In reality, he would write it off as a halucination – just like the biggest SIGN God has ever given has been written off by skeptics since the resurrection. “
It is not the atheist’s “responsibility to prove our existence apart from the supernatural.” It is nobody’s responsibility. However, if that is a problem or a question that interests you, then by all means, try to answer it. Personally, I don’t really care how or why we exist. I’m just glad to be here. Don’t look a gift horse in the mouth, as they say, eh?
No, I don’t desire to know if an afterlife is possible. Simple as that. Maybe you do. Maybe other people do. But I do not. So why should I have to answer your personal questions about existence? You should try to answer them yourself. Then, if you find an answer, don’t go pushing it on people who don’t really care.
As for how Dacey would respond to an audible voice, again you’re making a statement and a very big assumption about how and what another person thinks, and that’s just not possible or honest or ethical or anything at all except smoke-blowing and hand-waving that removes the focus from where it ought to be: what do you think?